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I guess it’s the same for both, each one has to be willing to break that cycle, and that often means taking a very big step back and being able to stand still long enough to recognise our own cycle as well as the cycle of those we think we’re supporting.
The difficulty for me was that it took me years to work out that I was a part of his cycle and he was also part of mine.
Jenny
Dear Ice
My name is Jenny and I haven’t been here for a while as I am now a few years out of my relaitionship. Your posts remind me a bit of where I was some years ago.I think what jumps out at me is that you know the advice you are taking and reading about is correct and that looking after you is the priority but your thoughts are preoccupied with ‘helping’ another who appears to as yet not be helping himself.
You cannot set boundaries for him, only yourself. You are doing enough by being there, but with this addiction nothing is ever enough until the light is seen by the owner. Most probably nothing is true that he is saying whilst the addiction continues to rampage!
It is easier for him to find blame in others for not helping etc not motivating !! Oh dear he is scraping the barrel there, take none of it on board or it will without a doubt bring you down.
This is his problem and ultimately only he can sort it – he needs to get his own motivation and take responsibility instead of looking to blame others whilst he wallows in self pity and denial of the issue.
It is so difficult to not worry and ‘mind your own business’ and to focus on you whilst you see a person you love attempting to self destruct but it’s true yet unrealistic until you get to that point where you are really comfortable with doing that.
You didn’t choose a different path but you still could, your choices have not been removed. If it was me I think now on reflection I should have thought more about the different paths I should have chosen and how things could have been better for me and my children – sooner.
The vile insults are bang out of order, addiction is not an excuse for abuse, when you look at boundaries concentrate on your boundaries and how you feel you deserve to be treated because it isn’t like this.
Keep reading but above all keep posting, every experience is different and everyone is individual. Tell your story and keep getting it out .
Wishing you well
Jenny
So sorry to read you are still going through it and as well the obvious impact upon your children. You ask a lot of questions, just as I did of myself and of him and his rather obnoxious behavior, sometimes we just have to accept that we will never know the answers that we seek to find and even if we do, they rarely solve the problem, but we can certainly drive ourselves around the bend trying. The answers make no difference because we do not have the means to make someone else change.
Well done for giving him a telling off, serves him right in my opinion, I think Jenny as F&F we tend to pussy foot around with what we say. I agree that there are right ways to support a person, when they are at the stage that they wish to be supported. We live in fear of not wanting to trigger an episode, walk around on egg shells, taking responsibility for the actions of others instead of achnowledging our own feelings and part in it all. As a result we push ourselves to the bottom of the emotional pile and forget who we once were. You can spout theory and text books until they come out of your ears on this subject and indeed many other subjects but in this process there is a tendency for you not to talk as you, talk as you Jenny, every time and if he doesn’t like it he doesn’t have to listen.
You have passed on to him suggestions of where he can get help and support from people who are better placed to help him, it’s down to him to decide when he might want to go down these avenues – you can do know more, except to start as I did, behaving like the duracell bunny constantly banging the same drum until your batteries run out completely !!
For now at least, this is the way he is choosing to live his life and you are free to respect his wishes.
However what i’m not reading in your posts is enough about who you are and who you were before addiction touched your life, in fact there is nothing in there that says, who Jenny is, what does Jenny like to do, how does she look after herself ?
I see a Mother who’s children mean everything to her and is desperately trying to protect her children from the impact of all of this and feels responsible for when they are let down. I know it’s not easy being both Mother and Father, god knows I did it for long enough, relatively unsuccessfuly ! Now I accept it is good enough for me just to be their Mother, it is good enough just to be me.
I found that the more I planned to do nice things both with my children and with my friends and yes it was a major effort, with everything going on and with work etc when actually all I really wanted to do was wither up on the sofa ! then eventually the less time and more importantly the less inclination I had to spend time dwelling on someone else and their issues. The company of others who don’t want to take from you and want you for you and your company can be a very powerful drive in your recovery – when was the last time you laughed properly ?
Perhaps it’s making it harder to keep trying to deliberately ignore him, it’s almost like putting more pressure on yourself and even testing yourself at times. Where as you could just say – yeah yeah yeah !! thanks for letting me know and expect nothing !! I know that was a bit flippant, but not to be spiteful but because you have other things planned with your lovely children and friends.
Anyway I shall leave you for now as I’m in danger of writing a whole essay !
Look after you
Jenny
We can never really tell why things are said at the time they are, but it is odd that the things you describe seem to coincide with another gamble and another loss and again there is the stench of familiar manipulation tactics in the air.
I found it and would find it even now virtually impossible not to feed someone who was ‘starving’. I think I would consider now whether that was actually true or not or try maybe to put it into some sort of context.
Thinking back to my own experiences my CG was often hungry (apparently) but it was interesting how he did not employ the same enthusiasm into gaining the means to make a sandwich as he did to gain the money to gamble or even to get to the bookies !! Having said that if I hadn’t kept bailing him out – he might of done. Interestingly he never lost any weight either, in fact he put quite a bit on ! Although I obviously don’t know his parents there are not that many cupboards that are completely bare unless he is the son of old mother hubbard, whether they contain what he wants to eat or thinks he should be eating is another matter.
I personally have never heard of a CG who succeeded in starving themselves to death and believe that they are way to selfish for that when of course the addiction is active but it is a ‘line’ which never ceases to tug at the heart string of a caring person such as yourself – if you feed him, try to make sure it is a no frills attached menu, certainly don’t give him the cash and consider ignoring it altogether if you can.
Its very tough, the manipulation is clear but if you care it is not always to apply theories to practice is it ? we all have gone through phases of knowing that we enable and knowing why we shouldn’t, but getting to doing it or not doing it can be a long and difficult road because enablement does take so many forms.
You are not weak and probably your strength hasn’t gone at all it is being sapped by an addiction of another, although I take your point about your job It seems a shame that you are off sick because of an addiction which serves you no purpose or benefit in any way shape or form and one that has drained the living day lights out of you instead of working with people who are clearly far more deserving of your time and care – these are the choices that we make before our own awakenings, they are things that we do when we allow the addiction to control us.
I think as long as there is contact there is always the risk of manipulation and the knock backs at least to begin with, you are vulnerable, but you are learning and exploring ways of coping and that can only be a good thing. I have been separated from my Cg for a couple of years and even now would not underestimate his ability to manipulate me given half the chance. Velvet makes a very good point, which made me laugh but it’s worth answering, would we have even have gone out with our partners in the first place had they have told us what was in store ?
I’d love to be able to say to you let him starve and suffer the consequences of his own actions, but I too know how unrealistic that can be.
I believe your strength is there but it needs to be possibly kept for things that will help you, not further bring you down. if that makes sense
Jenny
I had a similar issue with finance and I was advised that although the bad debt did not belong to me, if I had ever had a joint loan within the last 6 years – his credit activity could be seen and associated with me thus adversely affecting my own ability to get credit even though it was not my debt, if that makes sense. I was sent a form which I copied and sent back to the major credit reference agencies applying for a disascociation (I can’t spell) and they removed any financial connection by name on my credit files. It was Experian who told me this and sent me the form when I did a months free trial with them. I also checked them all again and low and behold he had been removed !!
I was also advised in the past to regularly get my credit reports in case my ex had taken out anything in my name, so it may be useful to get your credit reports so you know exactly what is on there and how if there is a problem, it is best rectified. Probably better to find out before you apply as if you get turned down or to many credit checks are done then this too affects your ability to get loans etc. It certainly worked for me. Definitely send back all his debt letters – the last thing you need is hassle from other people and I’m sure they’d love to know his address.
There is no quick fix and no point questioning your past decisions, it’s all baby steps and one day you’ll look back and realise how far you’ve come.
The conversation you had with him, seems like it may have confirmed your fears and did seem to sound a lot like blame and manipulation to me. Maybe it’s too soon for you or he’s not far enough into recovery (if at all). If he was in recovery I think he would be taking a little more responsibility for his actions but I am no expert, just heard it all before myself – several times. It is none the less extremely difficult when hearts are still able to rule heads from time to time.
Jenny
It’s good that you are going to start doing things that make you happy, it’s essential for the sake of your own sanity ! leaving you in a much better place to think or make more rational decisions.
Who knows what he will think about you becoming happier but looking after you is not a sign that his behaviour no longer bothers you either. Based on my own experience only, I would say that in the throws of the addiction, he would not be remotely bothered about what’s going on with you until after the event and for his own means until he accepts his problem and seeks recovery. The purpose is to help you, not to affect him. Addiction in my opinion is one of the most selfish issues around and many in recovery will tell you that they have had to be totally selfish and concentrate on themselves in order to work their recovery – a selfish addiction requires a selfish recovery, other people come later I’m afraid.
This is true for us too – we have spent a lot of time putting the needs of others before our own and what you are being encouraged to do calls for you to be selfish in order to begin your own recovery. It’s not easy, but like anything else – it gets easier. I no longer live with the addiction but still regularly ‘practice’ the art of looking after me – probably a little too much these days !!
However, I think it depends on what other boundaries you have in place as to whether he can perceive that his gambling no longer bothers you, no one is saying ignore the gambling or that it will no longer bother you – it’s time for you. The effect it had on me was to make me a lot more intolerant of the gambling to the point I walked away so the significance is not to be underestimated, all of our recoveries will be different.
I suspect the addiction will be confused and more rattled by the changes you are about to make, probably more so than confronting it head on, but I guess time will tell.
Give yourself a break, you deserve one
Jenny
My ex partner is a CG. I too found it a little strange when I came here what is now 8 years ago, like you I was looking for advice on how to cope with the problems caused through gambling etc. I too was told to look after me which at the time confused me and seemed almost ‘limp’ advice given the adverse circumstances – but it was probably the best single piece of advice I have ever been given concerning living with or coping with this addiction.
I guess it means something different to all of us but to me it meant providing myself with the opportunity for my head to clear and some clarity to return. Our thoughts and nearly every waking moment gets consumed by the addiction of another person, our happiness begins to depend on the decisions made by another person and in particular the recovery of another person, we begin to be controlled by the addiction to gamble but In a different way. We burn out trying to understand something that can never be understood and trying to prepare for every eventuality – always hoping and often waiting for the next bombshell.
Caroline it is you recognising that you are also important and that although it seems that way right now, your happiness does not depend on someone’s addiction or recovery and not becoming a victim or part of it’s wreckage. The addiction controls your husband it does not control you even though it probably feels that way
Looking after you is how you become stronger, it’s what will get you through and it’s what will get your children through, having a mum that’s getting stronger and hopefully happier.
When was the last time you did something just for you – what did you like to do before gambling took over, when I was asked that question I remember getting upset because I couldn’t answer it. Spending time with friends etc whose lives were not taken up with gambling was one of the things which hit home to me how abnormal my life had really become, not easy though as most of the time I just felt like hiding away.
And for what it’s worth, I absolutely don’t think you should take him with you !! it’s you making time for you not for him and his problem – although it is nice to be able to do things together which also do not involve the constant use of the G word ( as well as not instead of )
Be kind to yourself , try it, it seems strange but it works.
Jenny
Loved your update and look how far you’ve come ! suddenly all that hard work and stress begins to pay off. It’s fantastic to read that you “think ” you’ll be ok and I am waiting for the sequel when you say you “know” you’ll be ok and I don’t think i’ll be waiting for long some how.
I’m glad some space may be finally appearing in your mind as you are not consumed with thoughts of gambling, I guess that comes with acceptance that we cannot change what someone else does and worrying and second guessing changes absolutely nothing.
And more to the point there will now be more room for nice thoughts about nice things to happen and I look forward to hearing all about it.
Well done M
Jenny x
It has taken guts and strength to do what you have done and a recognition I think that you know you are worth more than that.
Just as a CG in recovery learns to accept or stop chasing their losses then in my experience so do we or risk being eaten up by bitterness. I accrued a fair bit of debt through my own enabling, which I have only recently finished paying off and in the end I tried not to think about it but just got it out of the way, I was daft enough to give it him after all, no point blaming him, or myself for that matter !! its gone.It must be aggravating seeing his parents continue to help him or more to the point continue to enable him whilst you struggle, but they too have to learn in their own way just as we have done – you won’t be thanked for telling them the end result of their ‘helping’ – best not to expect to be, although I guess we all know the end result until he seeks genuine help for genuine reasons.
The authorities sound like they are a-typically as understanding and as much use as their usual chocolate teapotical selves – another source of disappointment just when you need them.
My own experience led me to decide that the only person I could really rely on for what happened in my own future was me and that to dwell on anything else only held me back. I had fantastic support from here and close family and one or two close friends and I got back on my feet, luckily because I had or have three boys to support or all four of us would have gone down.
Like you I don’t miss hiding absolutely everything of value or that which cannot be nailed down in case it is sold, neither do I miss having to try and work out whether I am being told the truth or a lie or wondering how long it will be before the next bomb goes off, none of it is my problem any more. I know that sounds a little harsh, but it’s true.
I hope your life and that of your daughter continues to improve as mine has done, it’s early days, but it will get better, look forward and keep going, what’s done is done.
Where the CSA are concerned, if he doesn’t pay make a formal complaint against the agency – that seems to spur them into some sort of action (still in slow motion ) how ever as we are talking about an active CG I suspect anything you get will unfortunately be a bonus.
Look after you
Jenny
Hi M
In my experience M patterns can change, he will change his pattern to ‘fit’ what is the beginning of your new found learning, his ways of gaining enablement will become more crafty, the lies get bigger, the debts get bigger, the addiction becomes more sneaky and it gets stronger.
I guess no – one knows whether he has gambled or not but I can tell you quite sincerely that the scenarios you describe along with his behaviour could just as easily have described my ex partners antics – almost text book or should I say “The Guinness Book of Lies and manipulation”
He will be picking up on small changes in you, whether or not you recognise that you are getting stronger or not, he will and his addiction will begin to feel a tad threatened by that ! hence the possible changes in patterns – if we can see the changes in you, why wouldn’t he.
In one of your earlier posts you mention your need to be loved by and exchange love with another person, although you don’t say specifically him. I am wondering whether or not this is what holds you within such a destructive relaitionship. Is the fear of being alone more daunting than continuing with this situation? Do you enable because maybe you fear he will reject you if you don’t? The reason I mention these things is not that I am analysing you as such but that they were issues that I had to face within myself, once I was able to shift my focus from why is he doing xy and Z to why am I putting up with it, things truly began to change, all be it still slowly.
what do you think he would do if you flatly refuse to give him any money – end the relaitionship? because if he did what would you lose ?
You are getting stronger and sooner or later you will put it all into practice – when you are ready and in your own time
Jenny
Good to hear from you. I didn’t read anything that should make you unpopular ! in fact I remember one of the first replies I ever had on this forum many years ago in which I was told to “run like hell and never look back ” no mention of supporting from the side lines etc – do I wish I’d listened? well yes I do, I would have saved myself and my children a lot of grief and financial difficulties.
I still believe that we all have to go through our own process to come to the right conclusions, at the right time for us and I know I now suffer from impatience and intolerance of addiction in general whereas far from “running like hell” I personally limped through my own journey, probably looking like some bizarre example of how to lose a three legged race !!! I too feel like I would love to say “run like hell to people ”
I have no contact with my CG what so ever if I can help it, not because I hate him ( which I don’t) or I wouldn’t like to be amicable but because I still fear/respect the addiction and its ability to manipulate any situation / conversation it gets its grubby little paws on.
It is interesting how when we get in a ‘normal’ environment our own situation just seems to become more and more strange and bizarre and as you say when we are in the middle of it all despite what others say it is very difficult to truly see what is going on.
I think it is only recently that I truly understood what looking after me meant and often remind myself to do exactly that.
That’s what I would say to you Jilly – keep looking after you at every opportunity, recovery doesn’t end with the relaitionship – keep working at it and things can only get better.Jenny xxx
Sorry to hear of your recent news and interested in your views of enablement or reading on the subject I should say. In a previous post you talk about not enabling, not being used as a punishment, which I fully agree with, not enabling someone really is an act of kindness, after all why would we want to give the person we love the continuing means to further damage themselves ?
You also mention the clear necessity for self care and protection emotionally and financially which again I entirely agree with you. It might be worth reflecting on these points again when the dust has settled eg. paying off gambling debts = enablement, not bringing the thing he wants most from mexico = punishment. Self care meaning financially protect yourself by not paying off debt etc etc.
I understand how you may be concerned about his safety with his debts etc., but these are the choices that he is making and the consequences of which he may have to suffer or at least believe he will have to suffer if he continues to make these bad choices. He currently has no reason to stop.
Vera’s post gave you some insight and having read loads of accounts of the lives of people writing on My Journal as well as my own experience I’m afraid I have yet to read about a successful recovery whilst enablement is still available.
I too enabled for several years to both my own detriment and that of my ex partner
Jenny
One of the worst things for me was the ability of this addiction to make us over think, perfectly natural under the circumstances given the knowledge and pain that we know can arise through being caught up in an episode.
We start to work as hard as the CG does in plotting and planning their gambling. We try to plan for every eventuality, feeling the need to try and counter or avoid every episode and it’s impact – we work as hard but in a different way. Our life is consumed by the impact of the addiction.
Possibly most of the scenarios you envisage may not happen but in all this brain activity you can become totally burnt out and exhausted – the situation will not change because you have worn yourself out over thinking it.
The only persons actions that you can change are yours and no amount of thinking about his possible will change them – what will be will be.
It is only when we look at how we are dealing with something and see what we can change about ourselves that change is possible – it starts from within.
You cannot make his choices but you can control your own and your own thoughts, how much time you spend worrying about what he may do next is down to you, how much time you spend doing something nice and more constructive is down to you etc
Don’t worry about how you communicate or what he makes out of it you can’t be responsible for the way it is interpreted or the subsequent choices he makes, there’s no point worrying yourself to bits over whether you have got it right or not – so what if you haven’t ! you are a human being, we make mistakes
For what it’s worth M you are being way too hard on yourself, give yourself a break now and again,
Jenny